Prepping and climate change

[ForgeCorvus]

Is there any reason why we can't have cars etc running on non-fossil fuels?

Before Henry Ford cars where roughly split between petrol/gasoline and alcohol (with a few oddities like wood gasifiers), Ford could of chosen to set up his cars to run or one or the other and went with gasoline because it was half the price (or less) of alcohol.

I know there is a system to extract Duty on bio-diesel but as far as I'm aware its illegal to run a vehicle on the road using bio-ethanol.


Our commuter culture is also to blame, once you would live and work in roughly the same area (London 'burbs travelling into the city was more of an exception then a rule). Most of my friends either work within a mile of home (including those who work from home) or have a commute of well over an hour....... And in my bit of Norfolk unless you're going South you'll be driving, thats something like 400 miles a week

[jansman]

Quite timely this.I saw my customer,David, today.David is a heat exchange engineer at Ratcliffe upon Soar ( coal fired) power station.We have spoken before about how the National Grid is (literally) only just keeping the lights on,and his 'Black Station' is called upon frequently to bridge the gap when the wind and sun ( frequently) don't deliver.I asked him today, "So what's the big plan to fuel 32 million electric cars David?"

He told me that the lads at the station had been having a right rant when Bozo and Co. announced that they were going to screw up the uk economy in the next 15 years. His parting shot; " Got a plan? They haven't got a £ucking clue! "

[Arzosah]

He told me that the lads at the station had been having a right rant when Bozo and Co. announced that they were going to screw up the uk economy in the next 15 years. His parting shot; " Got a plan? They haven't got a £ucking clue! "

That's more or less what the guy from UK Power Networks said at the talk I went to this week

[Deeps]

The problem (if you want to call it a problem) is that our elected politicians have a shelf life and are only interested in 'their watch'. Making promises for 15 years down the road isn't their problem, they get to be the good guys who put these bold and popular proposals out there.

[jansman]

The problem (if you want to call it a problem) is that our elected politicians have a shelf life and are only interested in 'their watch'. Making promises for 15 years down the road isn't their problem, they get to be the good guys who put these bold and popular proposals out there.

Bang on!

[grenfell]

Is there any reason why we can't have cars etc running on non-fossil fuels?

From a technical point of view i would say not. As you point out engines can run on alcohol or vegetable oil or a wood gasification system could be used. Some shunting locos were built without fireboxes and used waste steam albeit often from a power station. There's probably a host of legal reasons such as not being able to use bio ethanol on the road. In the back of my mind there is something telling me steam driven vehicles have extra hoops to jump through and i would think a gasification system which is in effect a dustbin on top of a fire would cause similar problems.
The problem is more practical in my opinion. Convert all the cars in the country to electric and it has been estimated we would need to expand the generating capacity by around 10-12%. Convert all the cars to bio fuels or wood gasifiers and just how much land currently producing food would have to be turned over to fuel production? Drive or eat.
To a degree the same would apply to hydrogen , sounds good as a clean fuel but how much extra generating capacity assuming we aren't producing it from oil or gas in the first place.
The only real answer is to drive less or have less vehicles. I became self employed in 2012 and rarely travel more than 15 miles from home. Before that i worked for a firm and we would regularly travel much further. A one point i was working in monmouth , south wales, and it took close to two hours to get there. Didn't help but the vans were limited to 62mph but that was four hours a day which is near!y a day a week just sat in a van. I wasn't paying for the diesel so didn't feel the cost directly but certainly felt the cost in time and i certainly don't miss it.

[Deeps]

Is there any reason why we can't have cars etc running on non-fossil fuels?

From a technical point of view i would say not. As you point out engines can run on alcohol or vegetable oil or a wood gasification system could be used. Some shunting locos were built without fireboxes and used waste steam albeit often from a power station. There's probably a host of legal reasons such as not being able to use bio ethanol on the road. In the back of my mind there is something telling me steam driven vehicles have extra hoops to jump through and i would think a gasification system which is in effect a dustbin on top of a fire would cause similar problems.
The problem is more practical in my opinion. Convert all the cars in the country to electric and it has been estimated we would need to expand the generating capacity by around 10-12%. Convert all the cars to bio fuels or wood gasifiers and just how much land currently producing food would have to be turned over to fuel production? Drive or eat.
To a degree the same would apply to hydrogen , sounds good as a clean fuel but how much extra generating capacity assuming we aren't producing it from oil or gas in the first place.
The only real answer is to drive less or have less vehicles. I became self employed in 2012 and rarely travel more than 15 miles from home. Before that i worked for a firm and we would regularly travel much further. A one point i was working in monmouth , south wales, and it took close to two hours to get there. Didn't help but the vans were limited to 62mph but that was four hours a day which is near!y a day a week just sat in a van. I wasn't paying for the diesel so didn't feel the cost directly but certainly felt the cost in time and i certainly don't miss it.

The driving less should be the simple solution but I can't see it. Its something that people take for granted, was speaking to a dog walking friend this morning and her plan was to have a quiet day in avoiding the weather, apart from a trip to the shops for a few bits and bobs as she couldn't handle being in the house all day. I think we can all be guilty of that kind of thing, a half hour walk or a 10 minute drive stuff, even if its not time critical. There's plenty people who really don't like using public transport if they can avoid it, my missus for one, although they'd all agree that 'we' need to save the planet.

I wish I could come up with a clever solution but I think its going to take something drastic to make us do our bit.

[grenfell]

No you're right i can't see it happening either unless a government brings in really punitive taxes to price people off the roads which is something else i can't see happening as unless it had cross party approval it would be political suicide.
The thing i see as odd , funny , peculiar is that simply limiting the amount of travelling is by far the cheapest and simplest option yet so many people are opposed to it. It would mean no extra infrastructure , no new roads concreting over the countryside , less congestion , less pollution and probably less road accidents and deaths but we have to have BAU .
Your friend saying she couldn't stay in the house reminds me of a conversation i had recently. Somewhat off topic but we were discussing wedding anniversaries and a friend mentioned about going away to celebrate. That's something else i always find odd . To celebrate the day two people married and setting up home together we feel the need to leave that home and stop in some random hotel room.

[Deeps]

No you're right i can't see it happening either unless a government brings in really punitive taxes to price people off the roads which is something else i can't see happening as unless it had cross party approval it would be political suicide.
The thing i see as odd , funny , peculiar is that simply limiting the amount of travelling is by far the cheapest and simplest option yet so many people are opposed to it. It would mean no extra infrastructure , no new roads concreting over the countryside , less congestion , less pollution and probably less road accidents and deaths but we have to have BAU .
Your friend saying she couldn't stay in the house reminds me of a conversation i had recently. Somewhat off topic but we were discussing wedding anniversaries and a friend mentioned about going away to celebrate. That's something else i always find odd . To celebrate the day two people married and setting up home together we feel the need to leave that home and stop in some random hotel room.

A fair point, we find all sorts of reasons or excuses why we should indulge ourselves. No point putting all the blame on that big conspiracy by the cards and chocolate makers.... We could stand strong and 'stick it to da man' by not treating the missus on 'our special day'... although I'm quite fond of keeping my testicles where they are.

I totally agree that any drive by government would have to be cross party (and hopefully world wide otherwise it would be pointless) as if one broke ranks and promised to let us do our thing again to get votes it would come to nothing. Much as I hate governments 'forcing' us to do stuff I can't see any other way as we're unlikely to do it voluntarily.

[grenfell]

That's something else i always find odd . To celebrate the day two people married and setting up home together we feel the need to leave that home and stop in some random hotel room.

A fair point, we find all sorts of reasons or excuses why we should indulge ourselves. No point putting all the blame on that big conspiracy by the cards and chocolate makers.... We could stand strong and 'stick it to da man' by not treating the missus on 'our special day'... although I'm quite fond of keeping my testicles where they are.

I tend to go with the flow as well . I was even accused of being a misery guts for even suggesting such a thing. To be fair though almost twenty years of marriage means i must be doing something right even if we don't buy wholly into the romantic bit. Last time ( well everytime) i gave my missus flowers she said " and who's garden have they come from? " They had but ... And it's not as if she's any better really. She sells a lot of stuff on ebay and had a load of greeting cards and one year said to me " if you want to give me a Valentine's card use the ones in this box , they're the ones without envolpoes" . Grand life.