PTT. Simples...

Appin
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Re: PTT. Simples...

Post by Appin » Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:31 pm

Legally the PMR standard requires a fixed antenna.

The idea is to make them idiot proof so modification is not allowed.

A radio amateur who used their own equipment to transmit on the PMR frequencies would be in breach of their licence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMR446

https://web.archive.org/web/20170819055 ... EC1505.PDF

In general terms it is also not wise to assume that using radio amateur frequencies when not licenced will go unnoticed. During a disaster may be but in general terms the radio amateurs themselves can and will detect report and potentially track down trespassers. https://rsgb.org/main/about-us/honorary ... ordinator/

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jennyjj01
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Re: PTT. Simples...

Post by jennyjj01 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:47 pm

Appin wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:31 pm
Legally the PMR standard requires a fixed antenna.

The idea is to make them idiot proof so modification is not allowed.

A radio amateur who used their own equipment to transmit on the PMR frequencies would be in breach of their licence.

In general terms it is also not wise to assume that using radio amateur frequencies when not licenced will go unnoticed. During a disaster may be but in general terms the radio amateurs themselves can and will detect report and potentially track down trespassers. https://rsgb.org/main/about-us/honorary ... ordinator/
Correct me if I'm wrong. PMR or PTT walkie talkies are 'cut-down' feature poor devices with 8 or 16 preset channels only, capable of very low power and requiring no licence, no operating protocol or callsigns etc. A PMR transmitter would not be able to inappropriately abuse 'Amateur radio' bands.

On the other hand, these Baofeng devices are so feature rich that they can be used under strict licence terms on the amateur bands. Almost as an incidental feature, they are able to 'abuse' the PMR channels. They are intrinsically over powerful for that band, but that is almost un-noticable to anyone?

I can see how trained up and licenced amateurs would be very upset at non-licenced users buying a Baofeng and abusing their frequencies*. I can see how easily abuse would be noticed, too. But seriously, would those amateurs really bother to police the unlicenced PMR channels?

*Incidentally, I don't propose to ever abuse the amateur bands even though I have the equipment. I'm already studying to get licenced. A few in this thread express a lack of concern that the Baofengs are too powerful for PMR and I assumed they were licensed amateurs?

I don't need a licence to listen on ANY of these discussed frequencies, do I?
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korolev
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Re: PTT. Simples...

Post by korolev » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:13 pm

jennyjj01 wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:47 pm
Appin wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:31 pm
Legally the PMR standard requires a fixed antenna.

The idea is to make them idiot proof so modification is not allowed.

A radio amateur who used their own equipment to transmit on the PMR frequencies would be in breach of their licence.

In general terms it is also not wise to assume that using radio amateur frequencies when not licenced will go unnoticed. During a disaster may be but in general terms the radio amateurs themselves can and will detect report and potentially track down trespassers. https://rsgb.org/main/about-us/honorary ... ordinator/
Correct me if I'm wrong. PMR or PTT walkie talkies are 'cut-down' feature poor devices with 8 or 16 preset channels only, capable of very low power and requiring no licence, no operating protocol or callsigns etc. A PMR transmitter would not be able to inappropriately abuse 'Amateur radio' bands.

On the other hand, these Baofeng devices are so feature rich that they can be used under strict licence terms on the amateur bands. Almost as an incidental feature, they are able to 'abuse' the PMR channels. They are intrinsically over powerful for that band, but that is almost un-noticable to anyone?

I can see how trained up and licenced amateurs would be very upset at non-licenced users buying a Baofeng and abusing their frequencies*. I can see how easily abuse would be noticed, too. But seriously, would those amateurs really bother to police the unlicenced PMR channels?

*Incidentally, I don't propose to ever abuse the amateur bands even though I have the equipment. I'm already studying to get licenced. A few in this thread express a lack of concern that the Baofengs are too powerful for PMR and I assumed they were licensed amateurs?
I'm a licensed amateur. I'm not saying people couldn't trace your location and radiated power and If you were putting out 50w on PMR then you might get noticed but the difference between 1W and 500mW is so small that it would be almost impossible.

I don't need a licence to listen on ANY of these discussed frequencies, do I?
Nope. There are a few "restricted" frequencies, like ATC, that you're not supposed to listen to but, again, who'd know/care if you were

easy rider
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Re: PTT. Simples...

Post by easy rider » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:22 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_wPS_jOdPI

Have a good chuckle at this and watch the second vid he refers too . And remember in a emergency a real emergency with no other means of communication even a none licenced person can use ham freq to call for assistance.
nothing wrong with listening and I'm sure many members here have a few for listening. Like me u other items we procure ,part of our preps we have much often for times when rule of law ceased I see no difference here.

Stay safe enjoy your radio ,get to know it and enjoy pmr the uv5 is the best radio you can buy lol.

easy rider
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Re: PTT. Simples...

Post by easy rider » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:15 pm

Re antennas . My recommendation is at present watch smoking ape on baofeng rat tail counterpoise wire.
use something like speaker wire or if you see a vacuum cleaner thrown out cut off the flex its excellent quality wire and a silicon jacket so more flexible. Attach your rat tail to the Philips head screw bellow antenna.
you can then use the ht directional buy holding ht vertical lowering antenna to 11 o clock and raising rat tail to 7 or 8 o clock and move rotating slowly until receive is improved or back if it gets worse.

Best ht antenna we found for the uv5 even after testing genuine diamond was the retevis rhd 771 .however some ht sets once fitted with better antennas go deaf and I mean deaf. So it's your gamble to upgrade or not.all mine work better some other operators have had problems .we're trying to get around this presently because the tx gain is huge with the 771 over factory.so what I great pitty.
To test that would require monitoring signals and noting change in receive whilst swapping antennas.if signal lost its deaf to improved antenna over sensitive receive.
You can also set squelch to level one of 2 and note the signal bars level on top left of screen ,not perfect but better by ear.

Appin
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Re: PTT. Simples...

Post by Appin » Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:38 am

Dear Jenny101,

Firstly, please understand I was not having a go at you. The legalities of radio transmission are complex and people can innocently get into problems.

PMR has a very specific role. There are many occasions where a simple short range radio system is useful. PMR came as a legal means to provde this (at one stage there were plenty of cheap foreign radios labelled "not licenceable in the UK" which people used anyway.) The specification for PMR is designed to make them strictly off the peg. You cannot modify or enhance them legally. One example of this is the fact the antenna is fixed. If you know what you are doing with an antenna you can markedly increase the apparent power of any transmitter.Ok for a radio ham but illegal with a PMR radio.The fixed nature of PMR radios means they will not transmit outside their approved bands hence no licence needed. As you say the low power also avoids interference.


PMR radios in ther own way are quite clever.The ability to call a specific radio or to call a group is useful. I have some PMR radios and have used them with my family either when a group of cars is moving together and the passenger acts as aradio operator or when walking in an area with poor cell coverage. The range of several kilometres is optimistic.They do tend to be heavy on batteries hence why commercial PMR radios are often rechargeable.


This issue over using a Baofeng radio on the PMR frequencies is that the Baofeng does not meet the PMR spec so cannot be legally used on those frequencies.If you like, the rules say any radio transmitting on this frequency must meet the PMR spec. The extra power will not help that much as handhelds are basically line of sight. The xtra power is little use if the other radio is a standard PMR. Baofeng to Baofeng it might help but will also make you much more noticeable.If you use a non PMR radio you run the risk of interferng with other PMR users who can complain to OFCOM. A lot of commercial users are on PMR. A common one is motorbike driving instructors , building sites are another.


A radio amateur would be unlikely to look at the PMR frequencies. I use PMR radios but as PMR radios not as an extension of my ham activity.

Good luck with the radio amateur licence. Covid has messed that up at present. Once things are more settled one weekend course can get you the "Foundation licence". You get an indicative exam result on the day of the exam . The official result follows and will have your call sigh from OFCOM in a matter weeks.Your power limit is 10W. With skill that can get you a long way. The intermediate licence is fairly straightforward as well and can be covered in a few weekends ( 2.5 weekends in my case.) ( Power limit 50 W). The Advanced ( technically Full) licence is harder work. If you go on to try that one look for The Bath Based Distance Learning Course run by Steve Hartley is the best, they got me my M0 licence. https://badarc.webs.com/bath-training.

If anyone on here wants to communicate about doing the Radio Amateur Exam please feel free to contact me. The skills acquired help you get more out of any radio which can be useful, even if only a standard receiver.

Listening is a perfect example of the absurdity of some of the laws.Technically it is illegal to listen on some frequencies but unless you post on the internet you are doing it then no one will know. Listening is an art in it's own right.

Best wishes

Appin

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jennyjj01
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Re: PTT. Simples...

Post by jennyjj01 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:18 pm

Appin wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:38 am
Dear Jenny101,

Firstly, please understand I was not having a go at you. The legalities of radio transmission are complex and people can innocently get into problems.
Heyyyy Appin,

It takes a lot to offend me and I'm happy to be put straight on this and other matters. So no worries!

My primary interest in even getting one radio was for car-car or building to nearby building comms. I had bought some cheap 8 channel PTT radios a while back and they were absolutely useless, not even usable between two adjacent offices. So I put them in a drawer and forgot about them.

Then I bought one UV82 on an impulse because it was cheap, with a view to dragging it out if the S really hit the fan. I soon discovered that it was far more technical to use and a bit daunting, so that sat in a drawer too.

When I saw that the Baofeng was capable of PTT/PMR, I was a bit excited and bought another, this time a UVR5. At least now, in lawless times of dread, I'd be able to do car-car stuff or similar on the PTT channels.

While the law prevails, I do see how it's un-acceptable, if barely detectable to use the Baofengs on PMR. I do plan to learn the technicalities of making them workable, in principle.

I do know that it is illegal and socially unacceptable for me to ever press the transmit button on any of those frequencies until I get licensed and then only in accordance with the license. Something I'm looking closely at getting, if only to fill the time.

I don't expect to get excited about amateur radio, but then I never expected to get excited about rocket stoves and dehydrators. :D It's all still quite a learning exercise.
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Pete_59
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Re: PTT. Simples...

Post by Pete_59 » Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:07 pm

Hi Jenny, for the foundation course have a look at hamtrain, https://www.essexham.co.uk/train/ , I recently got my foundation license by doing their free on-line course.

The only expenses are; the foundation license manual £6, and the on-line exam through the RSGB £27.50.

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jennyjj01
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Re: PTT. Simples...

Post by jennyjj01 » Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:47 pm

Cheers,
Yes, I'm already looking at that, off and on. I will be doing the exam when I'm more confident of some of the more techy bits.

Somebody tested a pair of Baofengs on PTT channels at lowest power :D very clear at about a mile away at the opposite ends of a housing estate..

My conscience would be clear using PTT a little bit, in a serious crisis situation, if nothing else was available.

In Scanning, listen mode, over the course of about an hour, just a very few other folks picked up very briefly: A couple of builders discussing builder stuff and a muffled couple of children playing on what sounded like low power toys. No amateurs were clearly heard on the amateur channels. ( in a fairly suburban/rural area)
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rik_uk3
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Re: PTT. Simples...

Post by rik_uk3 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:15 pm

The Foundation is not really an exam, more like a multiple choice quiz, my grandson flew through it two years ago aged 11.

I strongly advise you to join a local ham club where you'll learn about radio and just as important you will learn operative etiquette. Last thing we want is a bunch of newbies who don't have a clue shouting 'breaker breaker' through the local repeaters so learn how to operate.

The little UV5R's are great value for less than £20 delivered
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/392308870382 ... SwwkhgMzHh
but don't expect too much from them in terms of range, the frequencies for PMR or ham are just going to work locally unless you can access a repeater to give your signal a boot up the ass.

Ariels are as important as the radio, crap antenna = crap communication so use a magnetic mount ariel on your car (mag mount) and upgrade the antenna on the unit for handheld use. Search for Nagoya ariel/antenna on ebay.
Richard
South Wales UK
Retired, spending the children's inheritance.

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