What are you dehydrating?

Food, Nutrition and Agriculture
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Cocotte
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Re: What are you dehydrating?

Post by Cocotte »

jansman wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:03 pm Please don’t dismiss food safety. Meat canning needs to be done under pressure. You only get botulism once.
Unless you're paying a few grand every 10 years.
jansman
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Re: What are you dehydrating?

Post by jansman »

Cocotte wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:08 am
jansman wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:03 pm Please don’t dismiss food safety. Meat canning needs to be done under pressure. You only get botulism once.
Unless you're paying a few grand every 10 years.
???? Sorry ,I don’t understand.
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

Covid 19: After that level of weirdness ,any situation is certainly possible.

Me.
GillyBee
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Re: What are you dehydrating?

Post by GillyBee »

Jansman, The weird and rich use botulism toxin to paralyse their face so that the wrinkles dont show.

Cocotte: Botulism toxin paralyses everything which explains why you might not want to accidentally eat it and paralyse your heart, lungs etc. It is thankfully very rare in Britain but when it does occur (most often in home preserved food) it is a killer and has killed entire families in one meal.
Those rice pouches are factory produced at much greater than boiling temperatures to make sure they are safe. And all those "acidity regulators" you see in commercial food are there to keep botulism away. The traditional UK jams and bottled fruits are only safe because they are naturally acid enough that botulism bacteria can't grow so waterbath canning is safe.
jansman
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Re: What are you dehydrating?

Post by jansman »

GillyBee wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:48 pm Jansman, The weird and rich use botulism toxin to paralyse their face so that the wrinkles dont show.

Cocotte: Botulism toxin paralyses everything which explains why you might not want to accidentally eat it and paralyse your heart, lungs etc. It is thankfully very rare in Britain but when it does occur (most often in home preserved food) it is a killer and has killed entire families in one meal.
Those rice pouches are factory produced at much greater than boiling temperatures to make sure they are safe. And all those "acidity regulators" you see in commercial food are there to keep botulism away. The traditional UK jams and bottled fruits are only safe because they are naturally acid enough that botulism bacteria can't grow so waterbath canning is safe.
GillyBee; thanks for that explanation.All I can say is, dear god, do folks really do that? Obviously they do! One lives,and one learns.
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

Covid 19: After that level of weirdness ,any situation is certainly possible.

Me.
GillyBee
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:46 am

Re: What are you dehydrating?

Post by GillyBee »

I thought a summary of some cases and the types of food it occurred in might be helpful in explaining the problem.
This is taken from this article. https://academic.oup.com/jpubhealth/art ... 37/1622732
I have translated medical speak into plain English where possible.

The hazelnut yoghurt incident clearly shows the risks of waterbath canning low acid food.

The largest outbreak of food-borne botulism in the United Kingdom occurred in 1989 with 27 cases and one fatality associated with the consumption of commercially prepared hazelnut yoghurt.17 This was a very unusual food vehicle because low-acid foods, such as yoghurt, do not support the growth of Botulism bacteria and therefore prevent the production of toxin. However, in this instance, canned hazelnut conserve was prepared by mixing pre-roasted hazelnuts, water, starch, aspartate and other ingredients and heated at ≥90°C for 30 min. The canned preserve was stored at room temperature for several months where the growth of C. botulinum and BoNT production occurred. The hazelnut conserve was added to yoghurt before dispensing in cartons that were given a 25-day ‘sell by’ date. The outbreak was recognized by the admission to hospital of patients (including those from the same family) with symptoms compatible with botulism to different hospitals in Northwest England. The outbreak was controlled within 4 days of the first patient being admitted to hospital by the withdrawal of the implicated brand of hazelnut yoghurt from retail sale following the identification of this as a common food consumption by most patients. Subsequent laboratory tests showed that Botulism bacteria and toxin were detected in the faeces of one of the patients, opened and unopened cartons of yoghurt and the canned hazelnut conserve.

A husband and wife of Italian origins brought back to England from Italy and consumed home-preserved mushrooms in oil. Both family members developed botulism (one died), and Botulism bacteria and toxin were detected in serum and faeces of one patient as well as in the bottled mushrooms. The bacterium alone was recovered from the faeces of the patient who died.

A male Polish national living in the United Kingdom developed botulism and subsequently died. Toxin was detected in serum samples collected before death. The patient shared a meal with a second Polish national, which included a home-prepared meat product (‘bigosh’) brought from Poland. The second Polish national returned to his home country and was diagnosed with botulism.

A female patient who had returned to England from Georgia. Botulism bacteria was recovered from the patients faeces ∼10–14 days after the onset of illness which commenced as the patient was returning to the United Kingdom. A food history was taken, and multiple traditionally prepared foods had been consumed just before leaving Georgia.

The final incident occurred in a male Polish national living in England who developed botulism within 24h of consuming home-preserved pork originally prepared in Poland. Botulism bacteria and toxin were recovered from the patient’s faeces and from the jar of home-preserved pork. The patient was treated with antitoxin and made a complete recovery. The preserved pork had been home slaughtered, bottled and stored at room temperature for several months in Poland before bringing to England for consumption.

If you are going to home preserve your food it is worth learning all you can to do it safely. "Grandma's recipe" does not always mean safe. It can just mean lucky. And our houses are MUCH warmer than those in the past. A winter room temperature in 1940 UK = a warmish fridge now.
jansman
Posts: 13623
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:16 pm

Re: What are you dehydrating?

Post by jansman »

GillyBee wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:57 am I thought a summary of some cases and the types of food it occurred in might be helpful in explaining the problem.
This is taken from this article. https://academic.oup.com/jpubhealth/art ... 37/1622732
I have translated medical speak into plain English where possible.

The hazelnut yoghurt incident clearly shows the risks of waterbath canning low acid food.

The largest outbreak of food-borne botulism in the United Kingdom occurred in 1989 with 27 cases and one fatality associated with the consumption of commercially prepared hazelnut yoghurt.17 This was a very unusual food vehicle because low-acid foods, such as yoghurt, do not support the growth of Botulism bacteria and therefore prevent the production of toxin. However, in this instance, canned hazelnut conserve was prepared by mixing pre-roasted hazelnuts, water, starch, aspartate and other ingredients and heated at ≥90°C for 30 min. The canned preserve was stored at room temperature for several months where the growth of C. botulinum and BoNT production occurred. The hazelnut conserve was added to yoghurt before dispensing in cartons that were given a 25-day ‘sell by’ date. The outbreak was recognized by the admission to hospital of patients (including those from the same family) with symptoms compatible with botulism to different hospitals in Northwest England. The outbreak was controlled within 4 days of the first patient being admitted to hospital by the withdrawal of the implicated brand of hazelnut yoghurt from retail sale following the identification of this as a common food consumption by most patients. Subsequent laboratory tests showed that Botulism bacteria and toxin were detected in the faeces of one of the patients, opened and unopened cartons of yoghurt and the canned hazelnut conserve.

A husband and wife of Italian origins brought back to England from Italy and consumed home-preserved mushrooms in oil. Both family members developed botulism (one died), and Botulism bacteria and toxin were detected in serum and faeces of one patient as well as in the bottled mushrooms. The bacterium alone was recovered from the faeces of the patient who died.

A male Polish national living in the United Kingdom developed botulism and subsequently died. Toxin was detected in serum samples collected before death. The patient shared a meal with a second Polish national, which included a home-prepared meat product (‘bigosh’) brought from Poland. The second Polish national returned to his home country and was diagnosed with botulism.

A female patient who had returned to England from Georgia. Botulism bacteria was recovered from the patients faeces ∼10–14 days after the onset of illness which commenced as the patient was returning to the United Kingdom. A food history was taken, and multiple traditionally prepared foods had been consumed just before leaving Georgia.

The final incident occurred in a male Polish national living in England who developed botulism within 24h of consuming home-preserved pork originally prepared in Poland. Botulism bacteria and toxin were recovered from the patient’s faeces and from the jar of home-preserved pork. The patient was treated with antitoxin and made a complete recovery. The preserved pork had been home slaughtered, bottled and stored at room temperature for several months in Poland before bringing to England for consumption.

If you are going to home preserve your food it is worth learning all you can to do it safely. "Grandma's recipe" does not always mean safe. It can just mean lucky. And our houses are MUCH warmer than those in the past. A winter room temperature in 1940 UK = a warmish fridge now.
That was most enlightening GillyBee.Thanks.
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

Covid 19: After that level of weirdness ,any situation is certainly possible.

Me.
Lemne
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:44 pm

Re: What are you dehydrating?

Post by Lemne »

Please don’t dismiss food safety. Meat canning needs to be done under pressure. You only get botulism once.
I'm not dismissing food safety. Waterbathing has been used for centuries as a way of preserving food. I am in 3 facebook groups with thousands of members in each who all waterbath. In the 98 years since records began, 9 people have died in the UK from eating home preserved food. All the recipes on the jar maker 'Le Parfait' site are all wathbath recipes including pates and cold meat dishes. As long as you follow the strict instructions it is fine. Pressure canning is an American thing with canners not available directly in the UK at the moment and they follow USDA rules. These state that pressure canning is the only safe way. That is because that is all they have tested, it's not that they have tested all the others and found them lacking. Pressure canners are banned in Germany as an unsafe way of preserving food. Everybody needs to do their own research which I have done and I happily waterbath.
GillyBee
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:46 am

Re: What are you dehydrating?

Post by GillyBee »

I fully agree that everyone needs to do their own homework and also decide on what level of food risk they are prepared to accept when it comes to preparing food and the methods they use.

I may drop an email to Le Parfait about their terrine recipes and ask them to clarify how long they expect these to last at a normal room temperature. My concern is as follows:
Terrines, pates and potted meat are classically designated as preserves because they extend the shelf life of offal such as liver from 24 hours or so to several weeks if kept in a reasonably cold place. The traditional recipes use water bath processing as the cooking process for quality reasons and French cellars and pantries were designed to keep a cooler temperature than modern rooms. Le Parfait may quite reasonably be classing these as preserves under the assumption that "everyone" knows to keep them in the fridge and use inside 4 weeks with no idea that UK people will see this and think "It is a preserve so I can keep this for a year in my cupboard".

I rarely, if ever, see French style jarred pate or terrines sold commercialy for room temperature storage and the longer life fridge pate I used to buy has now reduced its expected fridge shelf life from 3 months to 1 month. Commercial food suppliers would lose money by dropping the shelf life so I presume they have a good reason for these decisions.

As a result I personally assess the risk of this sort of food as too high to want to use it for long term storage for myself. Everyone else will need to make their own risk assessment.
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Quill
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Re: What are you dehydrating?

Post by Quill »

Has anyone had much joy dehydrating lemons or ginger? I always have to buy them when I'm cooking a specific dish but never end up using more like 1/2 of them before they go bad. Normally pretty decent at not wasting food but those are an exception.
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Cocotte
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Re: What are you dehydrating?

Post by Cocotte »

Lemons are great for freezing.
I have a bag of lemons and a bag of limes pre cut in the freezer if the need for cocktails arises.
Ginger on the other hand, I'm not so sure.

I got a load of cheap blood oranges a few months back I tried to dehydrate. After a couple of weeks it was furry. They need to dried for days, so I'd assume the same for any citrus.