Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Homes and Retreats
jennyjj01
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Re: Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Post by jennyjj01 »

Cocotte wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:07 am
itsybitsy wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:51 am I haven't heard anything good about them from anyone. :lol:
We have one and it's great.
It's a geothermal (big tube and pipe 200m verticle nto the bedrock). It could be better (I'll say later)
TWO HUNDRED METRES vertical into bedrock!!!!! Holy Sh..

And our government expect us to use a little block of equipment (0.6m^3) on the side of the house, drawing energy out of the cold air.
Graceful Degradation! Prepping's objective summed up in two words. Turning Disaster into Mild Inconvenience by the power of fore-thought

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jansman
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Re: Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Post by jansman »

jennyjj01 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:33 am
Cocotte wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:07 am
itsybitsy wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:51 am I haven't heard anything good about them from anyone. :lol:
We have one and it's great.
It's a geothermal (big tube and pipe 200m verticle nto the bedrock). It could be better (I'll say later)
TWO HUNDRED METRES vertical into bedrock!!!!! Holy Sh..

And our government expect us to use a little block of equipment (0.6m^3) on the side of the house, drawing energy out of the cold air.
That will be a GROUND source heat pump. Not the air source which is the common one. There’s a big difference.
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

Covid 19: After that level of weirdness ,any situation is certainly possible.

Me.
jennyjj01
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Re: Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Post by jennyjj01 »

jansman wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:38 am
jennyjj01 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:33 am
Cocotte wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:07 am

We have one and it's great.
It's a geothermal (big tube and pipe 200m verticle nto the bedrock). It could be better (I'll say later)
TWO HUNDRED METRES vertical into bedrock!!!!! Holy Sh..

And our government expect us to use a little block of equipment (0.6m^3) on the side of the house, drawing energy out of the cold air.
That will be a GROUND source heat pump. Not the air source which is the common one. There’s a big difference.
Thanks Jansman. I know the difference that you mean. Air source seems to be the expensive 'cheap option'.
Ground source more efficient, but still about as expensive to run as gas CH. While electricity is 3 times the price of gas, the 300% efficiency is irrelevant. What we need is a gas powered heat pump :) Well, there are such things as gas powered fridges.
I'm just flabbergasted at the idea of a 200m deep pipe.
In a new home, built to very stringent insulation regs, then I get it. I can't see a case for retrofitting under almost any circumstances.
I have to go along with FRNC, in that any grants should target better insulation. If we can improve insulation by 300%, then we would burn less gas in our conventional boilers. Heck, with great insulation, electric heating such as your IR panels could be the new in thing. Let's see government subsidise such 'heat the body' options.
Graceful Degradation! Prepping's objective summed up in two words. Turning Disaster into Mild Inconvenience by the power of fore-thought

Not Feeling Optimistic. Let me be wrong
Frnc
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Re: Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Post by Frnc »

Ground Source Heat Pumps are not geothermal.

GSHP can use pipes that are fairly shallow. The earth is at a stable temperature all year 15 m down. But either you have a big garden and lots of trenches, or a deep hole. They can go to 200m. Pipes full of fluid pass on heat through heat exchangers.

Geothermal involves holes 500 to 2,500 metres deep! Here, temperatrures can reach 6,000°C. Water goes in one hole and comes out of another as sperheated steam. Steam drives turbines that generate electricity. Geothermal tends to be industrial scale.
jennyjj01
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Re: Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Post by jennyjj01 »

Frnc wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:12 pm Ground Source Heat Pumps are not geothermal.

Geothermal involves holes 500 to 2,500 metres deep! Here, temperatrures can reach 6,000°C. Water goes in one hole and comes out of another as sperheated steam. Steam drives turbines that generate electricity. Geothermal tends to be industrial scale.
I don't know of the terminology but Geo = Earth(ground). Thermal=Hot

I think of GSHP as a subset of Geo-thermal and both ASHP and GSHP as subsets of HP
Image

A hole 200m deep was pretty unthinkable in a domestic setting.
>500m or 2500m deep, I'd be thinking of power station industrial scale.

IF I ever had geothermal, then I'd expect a carpet of pipes under my lawn a few metre down.... Which wouldn't work because a) we have a big tree and b) There's LOTS of compacted rubble.
Graceful Degradation! Prepping's objective summed up in two words. Turning Disaster into Mild Inconvenience by the power of fore-thought

Not Feeling Optimistic. Let me be wrong
jennyjj01
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Re: Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Post by jennyjj01 »

https://gshp.org.uk/resources/domestic-faqs/

"What is the cost of fitting a new natural gas boiler compared to a heat pump?
Gas boiler c.£2500. ASHP c. £8,000. GSHP c. £20,000. Totally dependent on heat load though."

Yeah! Sure!
That's the pump/boiler cost. No mention of the cost of the rest of the system and insulation.
Graceful Degradation! Prepping's objective summed up in two words. Turning Disaster into Mild Inconvenience by the power of fore-thought

Not Feeling Optimistic. Let me be wrong
jansman
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Re: Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Post by jansman »

I think that insulation has to be the way forward too. We saw social housing built at the back of us some time back. The insulation was superb! Indeed it was something else. My neighbour,a builder,told me that new social housing has certain regulations about insulation. A farmer down the road though ,has sold up,and there are £300.000 + private houses going up that are brick,breeze block - and that’s it! If the insulation rules are correct,then it should be applied to all houses ,surely?
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

Covid 19: After that level of weirdness ,any situation is certainly possible.

Me.
Frnc
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Re: Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Post by Frnc »

jennyjj01 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:59 pm
Frnc wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:12 pm Ground Source Heat Pumps are not geothermal.

Geothermal involves holes 500 to 2,500 metres deep! Here, temperatrures can reach 6,000°C. Water goes in one hole and comes out of another as sperheated steam. Steam drives turbines that generate electricity. Geothermal tends to be industrial scale.
I don't know of the terminology but Geo = Earth(ground). Thermal=Hot

I think of GSHP as a subset of Geo-thermal and both ASHP and GSHP as subsets of HP
Image

A hole 200m deep was pretty unthinkable in a domestic setting.
>500m or 2500m deep, I'd be thinking of power station industrial scale.

IF I ever had geothermal, then I'd expect a carpet of pipes under my lawn a few metre down.... Which wouldn't work because a) we have a big tree and b) There's LOTS of compacted rubble.
I just explained the difference. They are completely different. A carpet of pipes under your lawn a few metres down would be for a GSHP. The alternative is a deeper hole, but it won't be geothermal.

At 500 to 2,500m (geothermal) it would be industrial, yes, that is what I said.
jennyjj01
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Re: Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Post by jennyjj01 »

Frnc wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:39 pm
jennyjj01 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:59 pm
Frnc wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:12 pm Ground Source Heat Pumps are not geothermal.

Geothermal involves holes 500 to 2,500 metres deep! Here, temperatrures can reach 6,000°C. Water goes in one hole and comes out of another as sperheated steam. Steam drives turbines that generate electricity. Geothermal tends to be industrial scale.
I don't know of the terminology but Geo = Earth(ground). Thermal=Hot

I think of GSHP as a subset of Geo-thermal and both ASHP and GSHP as subsets of HP
Image

A hole 200m deep was pretty unthinkable in a domestic setting.
>500m or 2500m deep, I'd be thinking of power station industrial scale.

IF I ever had geothermal, then I'd expect a carpet of pipes under my lawn a few metre down.... Which wouldn't work because a) we have a big tree and b) There's LOTS of compacted rubble.
I just explained the difference. They are completely different. A carpet of pipes under your lawn a few metres down would be for a GSHP. The alternative is a deeper hole, but it won't be geothermal.

At 500 to 2,500m (geothermal) it would be industrial, yes, that is what I said.
Sorry. I wasn't disagreeing and maybe... Probably... I misinterpreted your post. Being pragmatic, I see the difference as geothermal taps into the Hot deep body of the earth where temp is already high, compared to GSHP which does similar but from cool earth where the energy has to be pumped out by a heat pump. With GSHP, as heat is drawn from the subsoil, so that heat energy is replenished by heat conducted upwards from deeper down. Sort of like the difference between a gushing full oil well and a depleted one where they have to push sea water down to draw the oil out. So I see GSHP as a sort of geothermal in that both draw heat energy from the ground. Please don't be offended by my pragmatism or even by my contrarianism 😀
Graceful Degradation! Prepping's objective summed up in two words. Turning Disaster into Mild Inconvenience by the power of fore-thought

Not Feeling Optimistic. Let me be wrong
Frnc
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Re: Heat Pumps are Pants! Second Thread

Post by Frnc »

jennyjj01 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:04 pm
Frnc wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:39 pm
jennyjj01 wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:59 pm I don't know of the terminology but Geo = Earth(ground). Thermal=Hot

I think of GSHP as a subset of Geo-thermal and both ASHP and GSHP as subsets of HP
Image

A hole 200m deep was pretty unthinkable in a domestic setting.
>500m or 2500m deep, I'd be thinking of power station industrial scale.

IF I ever had geothermal, then I'd expect a carpet of pipes under my lawn a few metre down.... Which wouldn't work because a) we have a big tree and b) There's LOTS of compacted rubble.
I just explained the difference. They are completely different. A carpet of pipes under your lawn a few metres down would be for a GSHP. The alternative is a deeper hole, but it won't be geothermal.

At 500 to 2,500m (geothermal) it would be industrial, yes, that is what I said.
Sorry. I wasn't disagreeing and maybe... Probably... I misinterpreted your post. Being pragmatic, I see the difference as geothermal taps into the Hot deep body of the earth where temp is already high, compared to GSHP which does similar but from cool earth where the energy has to be pumped out by a heat pump. With GSHP, as heat is drawn from the subsoil, so that heat energy is replenished by heat conducted upwards from deeper down. Sort of like the difference between a gushing full oil well and a depleted one where they have to push sea water down to draw the oil out. So I see GSHP as a sort of geothermal in that both draw heat energy from the ground. Please don't be offended by my pragmatism or even by my contrarianism 😀
To be honest, there are overlaps in the terminology, I was simplifying a bit to show the main distinction. For example some people call GSHPs 'geothermal heat pumps'. There is also geothermal used for direct hot water heating. And there is Low Temperature Geothermal energy.

In the UK by the way, temperatures deep underground are 'low', 39°C, 89°C and 139°C at 1000 m, 3000 m and 5000 m, respectively.