A moral compass in an TEOTWAWKI Scenario

[2ndRateMind]

I'm a newbie. This board is fascinating. I just starting out in prepping, and I'm finding a lot of useful stuff on here.

I am occasionally reminded though, of a certain saint (who shall remain nameless) who thought one of the chief pleasures of Heaven would be watching the agonies of those in Hell. Sort of 'I told you so!' with a torture twist. There is a question about the morality of that.

The thing that worries me about the prepping for an endtimes scenario is the kind of life we would all expect. As Hobbes put it, a solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short existence in a perpetual war of all against all. If you think about it, there is a certain element of self-fulfilling prophecy about that kind of preparation. There is a question about the morality of that, too.

My own feeling is that survival for an individual is quite impossible in such a situation. We live on such a crowded island, there will always be people stronger, better organised, more powerful, more numerous or just getting lucky who will be in a position to take what you have. There is no place isolated enough to hide, and still sustain a self-sufficient life. There is no way you can store enough of everything you will need to last your natural lifetime.

Seems to me, only communities have a chance of surviving the end of civilisation as we know it. And the best chance of them surviving they have is if they subsist in a decent society. To me, therefore, the best way, the most moral way, to prepare for the end of civilisation as we know it is to build strong societies and communities. It's to take sensible decisions over politics and economics. It's to wean ourselves off fossil fuels and our high impact on the environment. It's to start laying down the foundations of love and mutual obligation that make communities strong. And if we do all that, we may well find that civilisation does not end, just morphs into something kinder on us all, and on the Earth on which we depend.

Just my tupenny ha'penny worth.

Peace and love, 2RM

[jansman]

Manners Maketh The Man. I am a working class, rough ars*d butcher. I can mix with the Duke and the Dustman(my late Dad did that for 27 years).I have been a bit of a lad down the years, but always I have treated folks with respect and politeness. And why not?
I find these days, that folks do not step out of your way(as I do), but that is no reason not to. If the balloon goes up, we must retain our humanity. Sure, if my home is invaded, I will meet it with reasonable force-as is allowed by our laws. That can mean lethal force too, let us not forget that.
When civilisation frays at the edges, our morals and values should not.

[Plymtom]

Manners Maketh The Man. I am a working class, rough ars*d butcher. I can mix with the Duke and the Dustman(my late Dad did that for 27 years).I have been a bit of a lad down the years, but always I have treated folks with respect and politeness. And why not?
I find these days, that folks do not step out of your way(as I do), but that is no reason not to. If the balloon goes up, we must retain our humanity. Sure, if my home is invaded, I will meet it with reasonable force-as is allowed by our laws. That can mean lethal force too, let us not forget that.
When civilisation frays at the edges, our morals and values should not.

I'm with you and others with similar views, to be anything other makes one part of the problem doesn't it? I'd just say my moral compass is an interactive beast in that situation set neither to "mug" or complete "A hole"

[Cocotte]

I don't have the most powerful moral compass at the best of times so it makes me ask this question:

Would anyone (post TEOTWAWKI for the sake of the rules) have any objection to trading for goods you need if you knew they were illegitimately gained?
AKA, would your conscience be clear if someone else did the sinning?

[Plymtom]

I don't have the most powerful moral compass at the best of times so it makes me ask this question:

Would anyone (post TEOTWAWKI for the sake of the rules) have any objection to trading for goods you need if you knew they were illegitimately gained?
AKA, would your conscience be clear if someone else did the sinning?

I think we may like to think we would at least express objection, but think on, we tend to buy the cheapest or best value product from the giant supermarket's or imports made by someone for significantly less reward than we would like to be doing the work for, so sadly I doubt many would care to few do now even.

[SooBee]

Back to WWII for advice!

There were indeed occasions when the 'sinners' saved the group trying to survive.
To see things in pure black or white is a privilege of civilization...a difference between war and peace.
War brings mostly grey areas where we have to think on the hoof.
It may be that the group has to protect the sinners who protected them.

It is this eternal circle that keeps history alive.


Soobee

[SooBee]

For example, a crop of cabbages lie in a farmers field and a parent steals one to feed his child.
The farmer shoots the parent. The child dies of hunger.

Which is the greater crime?


Soobee

[grenfell]

Back to WWII for advice!

There were indeed occasions when the 'sinners' saved the group trying to survive.
To see things in pure black or white is a privilege of civilization...a difference between war and peace.
War brings mostly grey areas where we have to think on the hoof.
Soobee

It is indeed a grey area. An example of how humans can behave which always make me think are the Sonderkommandos . If anybody doesn't know they were jewish inmates at the camps that did a lot of the dirty work for the Germans and as a result lengthened their own lives at the expense of other jews who were being exterminated. It wasn't exactly collaboration but they knew what they were doing and it must have been a huge moral dilema for many of them. Of course many also went into the gas chambers when the Germans considered them to be of no further use so they stayed alive a little longer but ultimately shared the same fate as those they were processing. It's a situation I would truely hope never to be in.

As to you other question Soobee , hmmm difficult one that. What if the cabbages were destined for an orphanage to keep other kids alive, what if a thousand other things came into play, the greater crime? Mans inhumanity to man.

[Arzosah]

As for the cabbages ... I don't think its a question of "crime" at all, definitely one of morality.

Anybody remember where I got this quote from: "the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many" (sic) ...

Morality, see ...

[jansman]

Good topic this, innit?
In the end , we will have to make a judgement call. If it was a world WROL, I probably would trade for illicit goods, if it meant my wellbeing. Murdering for it though, or the illicit goods being murdered for... That breaks my moral code.
I am not a religious man at all, but the good ol' Ten Commandments ain't a bad set of rules to live by , just to keep the job simple in a bad situation.