Another little step towards a cashless society.

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Arwen Thebard
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Re: Another little step towards a cashless society.

Post by Arwen Thebard » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:59 pm

jansman wrote:Humour me here please... Supposing I had bitcoin and it was 'worth' £10,000.How do I cash it in?Who is going to give me physical cash for it,so I can trade it for goods in the normal way?

Call me simple,but I get paid in cash.With that cash,even if it is in the bank,(I can use a debit card,which is in lieu of readies),I can buy stuff.

With these ' virtual' currencies ( which I have hypothetically purchased with real money),how do I spend it in the real world? How can it be actually valued.I know that survivalists talk of 'fiat currency', but that pound sterling is the accepted trading medium - and will be for a long time hence.

What backs it? I bought this house with cash, and also by cashing in some actual gold- for cash.I don't see houses for sale for in anything other than £££'s.To me it seems bitcoin is like the fable of The Kings New Clothes.

Good questions. ;)

1) There are a lot of "online exchanges" where you sell your bitcoin for cash and they transfer the money direct to your bank account. It takes about 2 - 3 mins to make a confirmed transaction happen and then however long your traditional bank decides is reasonable to actually credit your account. The cost would be a few pence from the exchange.

2) There are credit and debit cards available already where you can hold your Bitcoin (or any other digital currency) and you can use them in the real world same as one from Barclays, Lloyds, Santander etc. The funds are held in your "online digital wallet" which works like a traditional bank account but on your mobile phone, in your pocket. Transaction costs are a fraction of a penny usually and always much lower than VISA or Mastercard etc.

3) You can buy pretty much anything you want online using Bitcoin including houses, cars, boats, weekly shopping, fuel, restaurant meals etc. Admittedly Japan is the pinnacle for those kinds of sales, where Crypto currencies are already officially accepted as legal tender, but it probably wont be long now before the same are available here in the UK.

4) Trust is what backs digital currencies, in exactly the same way as it is trust which backs fiat currencies and when (or if) that trust goes in either of them, the system comes crashing down. Fiat currencies are not backed by anything real like gold or silver anymore, so more and more people are choosing to put their trust in Crypto currencies rather than the promises of governments or central banks. Cryptos are backed by pure mathematics and encrypted formula, completely transparent and decentralized from any central control whatsoever. The blockchain is as awesome an invention and development as the internet.

Last month searches for Bitcoin exceeded those for Trump for the first time:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
(Not the best search comparison I know but it shows the interest level none the less) :D

If we are heading for a cashless society in the UK sometime soon, then decentralized, crypto currencies, outside of the control of the established banking elites and instead under the control of "the people" has got to be a good thing IMO.
Arwen The Bard

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Deeps
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Re: Another little step towards a cashless society.

Post by Deeps » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:09 pm

Arwen Thebard wrote: 4) Trust is what backs digital currencies, in exactly the same way as it is trust which backs fiat currencies and when (or if) that trust goes in either of them, the system comes crashing down. Fiat currencies are not backed by anything real like gold or silver anymore, so more and more people are choosing to put their trust in Crypto currencies rather than the promises of governments or central banks. Cryptos are backed by pure mathematics and encrypted formula, completely transparent and decentralized from any central control whatsoever. The blockchain is as awesome an invention and development as the internet.

Last month searches for Bitcoin exceeded those for Trump for the first time:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-p ... ?r=US&IR=T
(Not the best search comparison I know but it shows the interest level none the less) :D

If we are heading for a cashless society in the UK sometime soon, then decentralized, crypto currencies, outside of the control of the established banking elites and instead under the control of "the people" has got to be a good thing IMO.
Trust is the huge elephant in the room though, while banks/countries might no longer hold all the gold to back what they 'cover', they're established and have a vested interest in things continuing as they are so will endeavour to maintain their good names etc. We've had obvious examples recently where a country (this one for starters) has felt the need to prop up the banks which has saved countless of 'our' arses because things like mortgages/loans haven't been called in by banks. I'll fess up that I'm still largely ignorant of bitcoin but if it comes to pass that its as secure as banks backed up by countries then fine but its still a bit 'wild west' for me.

jansman
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Re: Another little step towards a cashless society.

Post by jansman » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:44 pm

A bit Wild West, to quote Deeps. Full of cowboys then? I will retain a healthy scepticism.
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

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Arwen Thebard
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Re: Another little step towards a cashless society.

Post by Arwen Thebard » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:58 am

I totally get your skepticism.
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grenfell
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Re: Another little step towards a cashless society.

Post by grenfell » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:52 am

It was that fourth point that makes me hmmm more than the others too , the rest I'm perfectly happy with. Trust , as you say , is the most important factor. Even with a gold based system we still have to have trust that the gold is actually worth something. We've had this discussion before , gold has very little practical use . You can't eat it , wear it , burn it or make tools out of it but we still have trust , or faith or whatever term one chooses , that it is valuable . In that way the pure mathematics and encrypted codes act the same , no real practical uses that I can see.
The other way gold and bitcoin are similar is that they are both finite . Gold is limited by it's physical availability and there are only going to be 21billion ever mined. They also both use a lot of energy to produce . 20 barrels of oil to mine a bitcoin ( see the link I posted earlier) and gold too uses a lot and leaves whole areas scraped away and despoiled. On one hand I like the idea of a finite money supply because it should at least keep economies and governments in check but on the other the envoiromental destruction and profligate use of otherwise valuable and useful energies and resources seems counter productive. Using debt as the basis for our monetary system gets round the waste and destruction but as we know is fraught with numerous other problems.
Those of a certain age might remember an episode of the 70's series Survivors where Greg tries to start a money system based on petrol issuing "banknotes" to the value of so many gallons. It didn't really work and even as a teenager I could see that such a system wouldn't work , basing a currency on something actually useful.
As I get older I find myself increasingly ( well I always have been) drawn to Marx's idea of using human labour as the basis of our system . I posted a link to that idea somewhere earlier.

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Arwen Thebard
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Re: Another little step towards a cashless society.

Post by Arwen Thebard » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:17 pm

History shows us that new inventions and tech advances tend to come along at the right time, when our human abilities are ready to understand them and our societal needs demand that they do, the internet being one such case in point. The crypto currency and blockchain scenario is another such development IMO, arriving at a time our society needs it.

We are watching the systematic devaluation, and eventual collapse, of most fiat currencies by allowing governments to keep the printing presses going 24/7 to prop up the current failing geo - eco - political systems. These new technologies will bring an end to many of these corrupt practices.

I for one am using the current surge in Crypto currency values to make some money and then use that cash to invest in my prepping activities. If Crypto currencies continue into the future and eventually go mainstream, then I will hopefully be ahead of the game in many respects.

Keeping an eye on the future are all part of my prepping plans. :D
Arwen The Bard

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Arwen Thebard
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Re: Another little step towards a cashless society.

Post by Arwen Thebard » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:19 pm

Back onto the original thread.....

The US federal reserve are [about] to appoint a confirmed cash hater, economist Marvin Goodfriend, to the Board of Governors, for 14 years! :o

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aper-money
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jansman
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Re: Another little step towards a cashless society.

Post by jansman » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:03 pm

Interesting article that.There is definitely an aversion to cash out there.This afternoon I paid the vet in cash.I don't use a card unless I have to,but that's me.Big posh practice,and the receptionists said they NEVER see cash,let alone 800 quid! My wife cringed when I said that I had used readies,but what's the point in drawing it from the building society to shove it in the bank,just to use a card?

There's no doubt though that cash is rapidly becoming a dirty word.
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

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diamond lil
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Re: Another little step towards a cashless society.

Post by diamond lil » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:31 pm

We use cash all the time Jansman and in big shops like John Lewis we get ushered quietly away to a till in the furthest corner. The husband hates it when I say loudly "Oh is this the drug dealers till then?" :twisted:

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Deeps
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Re: Another little step towards a cashless society.

Post by Deeps » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:24 pm

diamond lil wrote:We use cash all the time Jansman and in big shops like John Lewis we get ushered quietly away to a till in the furthest corner. The husband hates it when I say loudly "Oh is this the drug dealers till then?" :twisted:
I believe gangsta rappers use cash as well so you should be fine, no judgements by the Lewis's staff. :lol:

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