Experiments in skint blacksmithing

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Jamesey1981
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Re: Experiments in skint blacksmithing

Post by Jamesey1981 »

Going to bump this thread, anyone know of a company that does heat treating for home made knives and a ballpark figure for how much they charge?
I know I can build a forge, but I want to see how a couple of blades turn out first before I expend the time and effort, my metalwork skills are going to be a little rusty (ha!)

Failing that, does anyone have any experience of hardening tool steel using a propane torch? I know it won't give you the nice even hardening that you'll get from a proper heat treat in a forge, but I'm planning on making some knives out of some old files that I picked up for less than 25p each so if I can turn them into usable tools with stuff that I have already then I'd consider that a win. I've seen a couple of people do it on YouTube but I'm wondering how effective it is, I'm worried that an uneven heat treatment will stress the metal and cause it to crack somewhere down the line, would the tempering in the oven sort that out?
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shocker
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Re: Experiments in skint blacksmithing

Post by shocker »

Files are the way to go ! I made a few knives, drawknives, froes from them some years ago. Then I met a guy called Dave Budd at a show down here who forges knives old style with a hand cranked portable forge, he does some lovely damascus but, most interestingly, he was using files too.

Apparently the way to go is to cut off the tang and reverse the file so the old tip becomes the new tang of the knife. Theres usually enough steel that you can make a loop handle should you so wish.

I found one of the files that I had bought for this reason the other day and since my metal banging days are over I had thought that I would just grind it to shape, maybe putting a hollow ground fuller down the blade and tempering with a gas torch and old engine oil. That method has the added bonus of forge blacking the work. Though the angle of dip has to be taken into account.

Anyway, have a look for Dave on the web, sorry I dont have a link for him anymore.

Got a bit carried away and didnt read your post properly : A propane torch will give you enough heat but you will need a very wide head to heat a blade evenly. If you are tempering the whole blade, hang it on thick steel wire, heat and quench vertically. If you are just hardening the edge, sword-style, horizontally.

What I learned came from library books that had to come out of storage and bits I picked up from Instructables and from farriers and blacksmiths I spoke to. But watch out for Instructables as theres as much BS on there as good.

re; propane - have you considered making a propane furnace ? Certain breeze blocks can be sawn by hand and drilled with a spade bit or holesaw. You can then stack your sawn slabs into a five sided rectangular box with the torch let into one end and the other open to admit your work. This is how I worked, it saves all the faff with coals and tuyers and I have lately seen videos of professional US bladesmiths doing the same. You will obviously want some tongs...I made mine by welding mild steel bar onto the handles of old gas pliers or linemans pliers.

I hope some of this may be some help to you, mate.
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Jamesey1981
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Re: Experiments in skint blacksmithing

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I have thought about using blocks to make a forge, thats probably what I'll do if my metalwork turns out ok.
I'm only planning on making something small to start with, I have a fairly large file that I was planning on turning into an approximately three inch skinning knife with a full tang, it's certainly big enough and I reckon I'll be able to cut out the shape I want without too much of a problem.

The current plan that I have in my head is to cut it out with a grinder, then grind in the bevels on a belt sander.
Ideally keeping it cool enough to not lose the hardening that's already on it, then immerse the cutting edge in water to keep it cool while I anneal the tang and the spine with a torch.

Reckon that'll work or do you think I'll need to heat treat and temper it?
I think I'll end up with a fairly brittle edge, but I'm hoping that some time in the oven should help with that just to take the edge off the hardening, files are obviously a little too hard to become knives without some work.
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shocker
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Re: Experiments in skint blacksmithing

Post by shocker »

Read up a bit on work- and case-hardening, Im sorry but I understand it myself but cant explain very well. That and the changing state of iron alloys (steel) when heated ad the alignment of crystalline structure. It goes through stages of being martensite and so on, you can learn the colours quite easily, like cherry red and "beeswing".

Yes, what you are proposing is just what Im looking at doing. Im planning on leaving the fine file edge as the spine of the blade. A belt sander is effectively a linisher, just keep the speed down and try to clamp the sander and move the work piece. Heating to martensite, annealling, will soften the whole piece for easier working, and yes, regular quenching as you go is a must.

You have the basics of hardening already. Im looking at forge hardening/oil quenching just the cutting side of the knife to try and achieve a sword-like flexibility..I dont know if it will work, but Im going to try. And yes to the oven draw-temper.

Im sorry if Im not making a lot of sense here mate, I learned all this before I got my head injuries and had a stroke so memories are hard to find and I have trouble explaining things. Its like a book is on a shelf, I can see it but I cant reach it. :oops: :oops:
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shocker
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Re: Experiments in skint blacksmithing

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Also, if you are planning any bashing, what do you use as an anvil ? I bought a foot of used railway track for a fiver from a steel factor and gas cut a bick into it. The top is obviously well hardened by the trains ! It got left behind in the last move, sadly. Just not enough space where I am now. Not to mention that sheltered housing dwellers object a little to constant banging, welding, grinding and swearing. Oh, so much swearing.
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Jamesey1981
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Re: Experiments in skint blacksmithing

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Cheers for the info, I'll give it a go when I get round to it, the way I see it, even if I knacker my steel it's only cost me 25p, so I'll happily spend that to see if I can make something cool! :)

I'm not planning on doing any hammering, just playing with my grinder, if I do decide to build a forge though I was going to go for a bit of rail as an anvil if I don't happen across a little farrier's anvil, I have seen them in the past at boot sales, once for a fiver, kicking myself that I didn't buy it now, was probably worth more than that as scrap!
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shocker
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Re: Experiments in skint blacksmithing

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You didnt buy an anvil ??? I think the weddings off, Jamesey :cry: :cry:
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Jamesey1981
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Re: Experiments in skint blacksmithing

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shocker wrote:You didnt buy an anvil ??? I think the weddings off, Jamesey :cry: :cry:
In my defence they're pretty heavy and I had cycled to the boot sale!
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shocker
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Re: Experiments in skint blacksmithing

Post by shocker »

Seriously though, old anvils can be a rod for your back. If the flat, hard areas damaged or dished then its a hell of a lot of ARC welding with expensive hardox rods and even more cutting back with a big milling machine to get a true flat again. Otherwise the only use you will get out of it will be the bick and the hardy hole.

Stick to the rail and stake it to a big log or tall treestump so you dont have to bend to work. Get a bunch of old ball pein and lump hammer heads and re handle them long, 20"s or so, with homemade handles.

Since you are grinding you wont need to do that but its worth knowing all the same. Good to hear you are doing it mate, keep us updated ! ;)
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shocker
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Re: Experiments in skint blacksmithing

Post by shocker »

Jamesey1981 wrote:
shocker wrote:You didnt buy an anvil ??? I think the weddings off, Jamesey :cry: :cry:
In my defence they're pretty heavy and I had cycled to the boot sale!
Cycling ? Luxury ! In my day we had to crawl over broken glass to get to car boot sales ! Grumble, moan , etc
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