BB and UB dates

Food, Nutrition and Agriculture
grenfell
Posts: 3952
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:55 pm

BB and UB dates

Post by grenfell »

That old chestnut again and I apogolise if anyone thinks it has been done to death already but a recent report on the one show piqued my interest again. Just as an aside that report came from Rogers in Plymouth that sells really cheap foodstuff and left me a tinny bit jealous. I've a few questions for those like jansman who work in the food industry.
Now I'm pretty sure we all get the idea that best before is a guide to indicate that a food might begin to show some deterioration in quality post that date but is still fine to eat and I'm also pretty sure that we all get the idea that use by dates are to do with food safety and eating after the date could be harmful to us.
A google tells me producers have a legal obligation to put either a best before or a use by date on their products . I then started to wonder why just one or the other. If it is accepted that a food will deteriorate over time hence the best before dates does it follow that such a food will deteriorate to such an extent that it will eventually become inedible at best or potentially harmful and thus why doesn't all food with any sort of date carrry a use by date?
Another question concerns the proposal to remove BB completely . Seeing as how a lot of people seem completely incapable of deciding if something is ok or not will manufacturers replace a BB with something else , perhaps a recommended consume by date or something along those lines?
As lighter relief here's someone happy to chomp stuff over 70 years old ,
http://www.mreinfo.com/forums/viewtopic ... e4c0fee1c8
User avatar
Brambles
Posts: 3093
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:09 am
Location: West Midlands

Re: BB and UB dates

Post by Brambles »

I think your musings prove the fact that best before dates are a bit of a misnomer and are a guide only. I'll leave Jansman to make the definitive answer, he's the brain on this sort of stuff.

On a related note Tesco are removing best before dates on some of their own brand fresh fruit and veg in an effort to reduce food waste, good idea, I think by the way and not before time (sorry, slip of the pun) :D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44207480
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain~anon
jansman
Posts: 13623
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:16 pm

Re: BB and UB dates

Post by jansman »

All of the above! :lol: No doubt about it,it IS confusing.Coincidentally,I am currently on an updated management - level hygiene/food safety course.There is no mention of legislative changes where expiry dates are concerned.

I think everyone has the gist of how it works,but simply:

Under the Food Safety Act 1990 (amendment),ALL foodstuffs had to carry some kind of expiry date.Back then,a 'Sell by'date was sufficient.What with one safety issue and another since then,a lot has changed,and the above is where we are at at.Use By and Best Before.

Use by dates are for foods that can cause serious harm to health,and those foods generally are refrigerated and ready to eat.That means NO cooking,so NO bacteria is killed before consumption.Of course,the use by applies to fresh meat and fish that is to be cooked,but those foods have inherent risks of dates are ignored.This is the arena that sees serious problems like Campylobacter,Coliforms,Listeria etc.The Coliforms in particular are not easily eradicated by cooking.E-Coli 157 can cause total renal failure and death with only 10 cells! Bear in mind that it can reproduce exponentially every 20 minutes,given time,food,warmth and moisture.

The best before applies to (generally) packets ,tins and jars.It tells you that past that date it will deteriorate in nutrition,appearance and general texture.However,unlike a Use by date on a high risk,ready to eat food ( like cooked ham for instance) it WILL NOT,cause ill health.Unlike the cooked ham,which could see you off.

The food industry does not put those dates there to be awkward,or increase sales,as I have read in the past.There is a real and present danger with high risk,ready to eat foods,if storage instructions and USE BY dates are ignored.Trust me,it's for damned good reason!
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

Covid 19: After that level of weirdness ,any situation is certainly possible.

Me.
jansman
Posts: 13623
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:16 pm

Re: BB and UB dates

Post by jansman »

Linkie:https://www.food.gov.uk/about-us/key-regulations.

This is what underpins the entire industry.It is a serious matter,and I urge everyone to acquaint themselves with basic food hygiene rules.Indeed,it should be taught at school.

From a prepping angle,knowledge of food handling could be vital if refrigeration and handwashing were compromised.
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

Covid 19: After that level of weirdness ,any situation is certainly possible.

Me.
grenfell
Posts: 3952
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: BB and UB dates

Post by grenfell »

jansman wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 2:48 pm I think everyone has the gist of how it works,but simply:

Under the Food Safety Act 1990 (amendment),ALL foodstuffs had to carry some kind of expiry date.
Use by dates are for foods that can cause serious harm to health,and those foods generally are refrigerated and ready to eat.That means NO cooking,so NO bacteria is killed before consumption.

The best before applies to (generally) packets ,tins and jars.It tells you that past that date it will deteriorate in nutrition,appearance and general texture.However,unlike a Use by date on a high risk,ready to eat food ( like cooked ham for instance) it WILL NOT,cause ill health.Unlike the cooked ham,which could see you off.
Yeah I should think or hope that all of us on here get the gist off how it works but those other two paragraphs are helpful.
With all the recent interest in best before dates and the announcement that some are thinking of dropping them it makes me wonder what will replace them if all foodstufffs have to carry some sort of date by law , perhaps some sort of "recommended consumption date" ?
That link I put up was just to highlight how old stuff is still edible if not exactly gourmet but it does give me an idea. The site is dedicated to MRE's , meals ready to eat , essentially a box of food for a day for one man by and large. There are many who still rely on food dating and would probably struggle or be just as confused if those dates disappear. Perhaps there's a marketing opportunity for a supermarket to sell boxes of foods for perhaps the week or three days or so containing just enough for that period. All guaranteed fresh and top quality. While it may horrify many on here there is the perfectly logical argument that if people only brought enough for each week at a time and consumed it in that time best before and to a degree use by dates would be largely irrelevant.
jansman
Posts: 13623
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:16 pm

Re: BB and UB dates

Post by jansman »

That last sentence sums up the modern food ' situation'. Waaay back when I was apprenticed to a Master Butcher,food was purchased pretty much daily.Cooked and consumed that day.No room for storage error.
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

Covid 19: After that level of weirdness ,any situation is certainly possible.

Me.
User avatar
ukpreppergrrl
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:03 am
Location: London

Re: BB and UB dates

Post by ukpreppergrrl »

Ah...Campylobacter....now THAT was a fun fortnight!!! :shock: Never did get to the bottom of where I picked it up, though I always suspected the three bean salad at the work canteen. Annoyingly I didn't lose weight, despite nothing remaining in my body for longer than 20 minutes! Rapid Transit was an understatement! :lol: I just moved into the bathroom for the duration. It might have been the only notifiable food poisoning I've had, but it wasn't actually the worst symptom-wise... :?
Blog: http://ukpreppergrrl.wordpress.com
التَكْرَارُ يُعَلِّمُ الحِمارَ "Repetition teaches the donkey" Arabic proverb
"A year from now you may wish you had started today" Karen Lamb
User avatar
Deeps
Posts: 5797
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:36 pm

Re: BB and UB dates

Post by Deeps »

In reply to Grenfell's oldest scran link, I'll link this.



Yeah, the whole food thing is V complicated, I can understand why supermarkets want to remove them from fresh fruit and veg, we will all have a good idea of what we think is edible, meat on the other hand....

I do eat stuff that's well out of date, got a packet of noodles in my food bag for this weekend that went 'out of date' in 2015. If you don't hear from me after the weekend you'll know why. ;)
jansman
Posts: 13623
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:16 pm

Re: BB and UB dates

Post by jansman »

Point is Deeps,the noodles are BEST BEFORE.They will NOT harm you.If they were fresh noodles,and you exceeded the USE BY date,you could easily suffer from Bacillus Cereus. Because your noodles are dried,one of the four elements of food borne illness is removed; moisture.That renders the other 3; food,warmth and time,useless.They might taste like crap,but they won't make you ill.
In three words I can sum up everything I have learned about life: It goes on.

Robert Frost.

Covid 19: After that level of weirdness ,any situation is certainly possible.

Me.
User avatar
Plymtom
Posts: 2670
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:11 pm
Location: Plymouth

Re: BB and UB dates

Post by Plymtom »

OK I do get the BB and UB thing well explain again by Jansman, but I have a gripe largely with Tesco and the weekly shop and bread in particular as such I believe they should still have "Sell by dates" I'm not sure how everyone else goes about it but I visit the large "Extra" (my arse) store to get a weeks worth of stuff and yet all too often in warm weather it is entirely possible to by bread with only 1 day left on the BB, and indeed bought on Friday is mouldy by Monday, my lot have IBS and their general condition means I have to have options food wise which does mean an amount of food waste is almost inevitable, mostly bread but also some cooked meat on occasion, my point being I cannot say for certain when I will be asked to make sandwiches, toast, burgers, but often give myself the option, and when I'm doing the proverbial "big shop" I'm doing it for the week as are most who use the huge supermarkets, in those supermarkets which have poor stock management we have to check everything carefully.

My wife once had a bad case of food poisoning which we were able to extrapolate was down to mayonnaise, so I would add to pay attention to those labels which say once opened refrigerate and consume within ##### days or weeks, we write the date we open Mayo type stuff on the lid.
Strangely enough ( the doctor reckoned it was because of the preserving process) I once made myself a sandwich of what I thought was particularly thick ham --- it was raw gammon with no ill effects whatsoever, I was unaware of my mistake as it tasted like ham :lol: until the next day when it was needed. As a kid stood in front of a commercial mincing machine ( on a chair because I was only 5) at the butchers shop my dad worked in given the task of dropping hunks of meat in and poshing it down the the wooden tool, I used to eat raw mincemeat when no one was looking :oops: I doubt they would get away with it these days health and safety and all that children left operating machinery :lol: it was the 60s though and I was told how to ( and not to ) do it.
I have a strategy, it's not written in stone, nor can it be, this scenario has too many variables, everything about it depends on those variables, being specific is not possible.